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	<title>Comments on: Cleopatra’s True Racial Background (and Does it Really Matter?)</title>
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	<description>Academic insights for the thinking world.</description>
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		<title>By: V</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-365922</link>
		<dc:creator>V</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-365922</guid>
		<description>No one wants to admit in Africa of all places, that Cleopatra had any black African blood.  Give me a break.  Egyptian blood is black African blood, and they had mixed peoples, too.  It&#039;s kind of hard to get away from black blood in Africa.  Most dynasties in Egypt hailed from Nubia, modern day Sudan...and Kush...all from Noah&#039;s black son, Ham.  So, I&#039;m not convinced that she wasn&#039;t more like a Mariah Carey type.  And if you&#039;re talking about her likeness on those coins, that ship won&#039;t float either.  Her nose could very well be like that of one of the hostesses on ABC&#039;s The Chew, Carla Hall.  Turn her sideways and let an artist go to work, I&#039;m sure you&#039;d get a very similar coin to Cleopatra!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one wants to admit in Africa of all places, that Cleopatra had any black African blood.  Give me a break.  Egyptian blood is black African blood, and they had mixed peoples, too.  It&#8217;s kind of hard to get away from black blood in Africa.  Most dynasties in Egypt hailed from Nubia, modern day Sudan&#8230;and Kush&#8230;all from Noah&#8217;s black son, Ham.  So, I&#8217;m not convinced that she wasn&#8217;t more like a Mariah Carey type.  And if you&#8217;re talking about her likeness on those coins, that ship won&#8217;t float either.  Her nose could very well be like that of one of the hostesses on ABC&#8217;s The Chew, Carla Hall.  Turn her sideways and let an artist go to work, I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;d get a very similar coin to Cleopatra!</p>
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		<title>By: sandra</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-362855</link>
		<dc:creator>sandra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Mar 2013 23:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-362855</guid>
		<description>I always am a bit suspicious when someone says, does knowing the racial ethicity of character in history matters. Especially when the Europeans have gone out of their way to rewrite history to suit their own agenda and esthetic taste. Even the American history and it&#039;s characters have been distorted and it&#039;s not as old as Epypt and Cleopatra.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always am a bit suspicious when someone says, does knowing the racial ethicity of character in history matters. Especially when the Europeans have gone out of their way to rewrite history to suit their own agenda and esthetic taste. Even the American history and it&#8217;s characters have been distorted and it&#8217;s not as old as Epypt and Cleopatra.</p>
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		<title>By: Daisy</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-293525</link>
		<dc:creator>Daisy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2012 17:31:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-293525</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think its fair of you to refer to notions that others have raised as &quot;just silly,&quot; the fact is that we have an incomplete picture, why the door has been opened to such much gossip and radical suggestions, its all fair game in the realm of the imagination and personal interpretation, while she was the last Ptolemy to rule Egypt, and therefore had Greek ancestry as well, with 50 to 75 percent of her background a mystery due to her mother and grandmother all of us can only draw speculations, while you are doing some thinking... at the end of the day you too have to speculate about what might have been, and there&#039;s nothing wrong with that. While she might not have had shared some Egyptian or African heritage... she also *might* have, perhaps it was another culture entirely that we haven&#039;t considered yet, its something that nobody can ever prove one way or the other. I also believe you give a lot of extra weight to the way that she is depicted in Greek and Roman artwork, implying that this proves that she could not have been a woman with a background other than Mediterranean. The word that this &quot;demolishes&quot; the idea I found to be especially melodramatic. I am not a historian, but I am an artist by profession, and I think a statement like you made is almost unrealistically literal when it comes to the land of art. Throughout the world, in ever age, it is a human instinct, especially in scenes of some majesty or beauty, heroism to create art that you can identify with, if you look at an image of the Madonna throughout different cultures, be it Egyptian Coptic art, Greek Orthodox, the Renaissance movement or an African-American church, the main figure they want to convey usually is representative of their own culture. I think rather than telling us what Cleopatra actually looked like, an artistic representation, be it in the ancient world or modern, tells us more about the artist who made it, than its subject. If you look at Greek and Roman art to gain knowledge I think the only knowledge that you would come away with is that it was... Greek and Roman art. As a second point to consider, this is by no stretch of the imagination art of any realistic detail, these are beautiful periods, but it is stylized artwork, a coin bearing Cleopatra&#039;s image may not be anymore plausible as a realistic human being than a tapestry or effigy of Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine in the medieval era would. These are images of a very heightened, almost caricature-like reality, and not irrefutable evidence of what anyone would have actually looked like, often a work like this is barely feasible as a human being, let alone a specific personage. Third I would argue that it is a matter or perception whether or not ancient art portraying Cleopatra could reflect the East or not, The Tetradrachm of Cleopatra of the Syrian mint to me shows a striking woman whose features are not limited to a specific culture, a lady with thick deeply curling hair and bushy eyebrows, a round face with fleshy facial features, slack cheeks, a round skull, a powerful, strong nose, very large beautiful eyes with heavily veiled lids. It is a face as far as I&#039;m concerned that might appear in Europe, or Asia, Africa, Australia, North or South America. While you ask does it really matter, you&#039;ve laid out your argument with such passion and research that it doesn&#039;t seem that it doesn&#039;t matter to you. I think it is something that would be an empowering thing to remember no matter who you are that you are of the people of Queen Cleopatra. If I were British I would be proud to remember Queen Elizabeth as apart of me. If I were Sudanese I would count myself blessed to have been apart of a culture that produced Taharqa. An Egyptian person might find power in remembering Ramses II, we all want heroes whether it is a Greek person remembering Alexander the Great, or a Chinese man or woman remembering where they came from and their talented ancestors like Emperor Taizong of Tang. Whether it was Akbar the Great or Catherine Great, the human race looks to the past for  people that they can admire, so with some doubts as to every part of who she was it is not at all surprising that we might want to fill in the blanks and find away to bring Cleopatra even closer to us, whether that is by thinking of her as a black woman or a white woman. There is power in an image of yourself. It is not because people care about color why people propose different theories about Cleopatra&#039;s mixture of cultures... it is because they care about her, it is in deed her intelligence, her charisma, her bravery and her gifts to the world why we remember her... and want to be her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think its fair of you to refer to notions that others have raised as &#8220;just silly,&#8221; the fact is that we have an incomplete picture, why the door has been opened to such much gossip and radical suggestions, its all fair game in the realm of the imagination and personal interpretation, while she was the last Ptolemy to rule Egypt, and therefore had Greek ancestry as well, with 50 to 75 percent of her background a mystery due to her mother and grandmother all of us can only draw speculations, while you are doing some thinking&#8230; at the end of the day you too have to speculate about what might have been, and there&#8217;s nothing wrong with that. While she might not have had shared some Egyptian or African heritage&#8230; she also *might* have, perhaps it was another culture entirely that we haven&#8217;t considered yet, its something that nobody can ever prove one way or the other. I also believe you give a lot of extra weight to the way that she is depicted in Greek and Roman artwork, implying that this proves that she could not have been a woman with a background other than Mediterranean. The word that this &#8220;demolishes&#8221; the idea I found to be especially melodramatic. I am not a historian, but I am an artist by profession, and I think a statement like you made is almost unrealistically literal when it comes to the land of art. Throughout the world, in ever age, it is a human instinct, especially in scenes of some majesty or beauty, heroism to create art that you can identify with, if you look at an image of the Madonna throughout different cultures, be it Egyptian Coptic art, Greek Orthodox, the Renaissance movement or an African-American church, the main figure they want to convey usually is representative of their own culture. I think rather than telling us what Cleopatra actually looked like, an artistic representation, be it in the ancient world or modern, tells us more about the artist who made it, than its subject. If you look at Greek and Roman art to gain knowledge I think the only knowledge that you would come away with is that it was&#8230; Greek and Roman art. As a second point to consider, this is by no stretch of the imagination art of any realistic detail, these are beautiful periods, but it is stylized artwork, a coin bearing Cleopatra&#8217;s image may not be anymore plausible as a realistic human being than a tapestry or effigy of Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine in the medieval era would. These are images of a very heightened, almost caricature-like reality, and not irrefutable evidence of what anyone would have actually looked like, often a work like this is barely feasible as a human being, let alone a specific personage. Third I would argue that it is a matter or perception whether or not ancient art portraying Cleopatra could reflect the East or not, The Tetradrachm of Cleopatra of the Syrian mint to me shows a striking woman whose features are not limited to a specific culture, a lady with thick deeply curling hair and bushy eyebrows, a round face with fleshy facial features, slack cheeks, a round skull, a powerful, strong nose, very large beautiful eyes with heavily veiled lids. It is a face as far as I&#8217;m concerned that might appear in Europe, or Asia, Africa, Australia, North or South America. While you ask does it really matter, you&#8217;ve laid out your argument with such passion and research that it doesn&#8217;t seem that it doesn&#8217;t matter to you. I think it is something that would be an empowering thing to remember no matter who you are that you are of the people of Queen Cleopatra. If I were British I would be proud to remember Queen Elizabeth as apart of me. If I were Sudanese I would count myself blessed to have been apart of a culture that produced Taharqa. An Egyptian person might find power in remembering Ramses II, we all want heroes whether it is a Greek person remembering Alexander the Great, or a Chinese man or woman remembering where they came from and their talented ancestors like Emperor Taizong of Tang. Whether it was Akbar the Great or Catherine Great, the human race looks to the past for  people that they can admire, so with some doubts as to every part of who she was it is not at all surprising that we might want to fill in the blanks and find away to bring Cleopatra even closer to us, whether that is by thinking of her as a black woman or a white woman. There is power in an image of yourself. It is not because people care about color why people propose different theories about Cleopatra&#8217;s mixture of cultures&#8230; it is because they care about her, it is in deed her intelligence, her charisma, her bravery and her gifts to the world why we remember her&#8230; and want to be her.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul de Souza</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-251909</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul de Souza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2012 21:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-251909</guid>
		<description>It still detracts from the absolute truth, that ancient Egypt was a black place for a long time with African language, black cultural cues,   and black trade and black Pyramid building, the Ptolemys&#039; didnt build a Pyramid,  did they? No. If we focus on the &quot;Eurocentric perspective&quot; of Egypt it comes across as a European enclave and it is this that angers every Black African, already feeling the effects of  centuries of discrimination and historical denials and destruction of thier heritage, Credit has been taken away from Black Africans for the Nubian contribution to ancient Egypt, and it is this issue that creates the furore regarding race and ethnicity of a Pharoh dynasty. Black Africans are central to ancient Egyptian culture, they are not a footnote. Egypt is in AFRICA, not Europe, and there is no such thing as a Macedonian Greek, and May I draw your attention to the work of Hilke Thuer who has  deduced a strong probability that Cleopatra was MIXED RACE,m through insight into Arsinoes discovered remains.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It still detracts from the absolute truth, that ancient Egypt was a black place for a long time with African language, black cultural cues,   and black trade and black Pyramid building, the Ptolemys&#8217; didnt build a Pyramid,  did they? No. If we focus on the &#8220;Eurocentric perspective&#8221; of Egypt it comes across as a European enclave and it is this that angers every Black African, already feeling the effects of  centuries of discrimination and historical denials and destruction of thier heritage, Credit has been taken away from Black Africans for the Nubian contribution to ancient Egypt, and it is this issue that creates the furore regarding race and ethnicity of a Pharoh dynasty. Black Africans are central to ancient Egyptian culture, they are not a footnote. Egypt is in AFRICA, not Europe, and there is no such thing as a Macedonian Greek, and May I draw your attention to the work of Hilke Thuer who has  deduced a strong probability that Cleopatra was MIXED RACE,m through insight into Arsinoes discovered remains.</p>
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		<title>By: Rudy Garcia</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-223490</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudy Garcia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 12:27:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-223490</guid>
		<description>P W Botha former Prime Minister of South Africa was also born in Africa and was therefore an African.   We also know that he was white, member of the white segregationist elite and of Dutch descent.  Just because Cleopatra was born in Africa does not make her black.  The historical reality and fact is that she was a Mediterranean Caucasian of Macedonian - Greek stock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P W Botha former Prime Minister of South Africa was also born in Africa and was therefore an African.   We also know that he was white, member of the white segregationist elite and of Dutch descent.  Just because Cleopatra was born in Africa does not make her black.  The historical reality and fact is that she was a Mediterranean Caucasian of Macedonian &#8211; Greek stock.</p>
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		<title>By: Tanya Nevels</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-209445</link>
		<dc:creator>Tanya Nevels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2011 14:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-209445</guid>
		<description>I also viewed the documentary called Cleopatra! Her mother was African, and this is relevent because I will now tell my daughters the TRUTH about Cleopatra. They need to know that this powerful Woman in history ,looked just like US!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also viewed the documentary called Cleopatra! Her mother was African, and this is relevent because I will now tell my daughters the TRUTH about Cleopatra. They need to know that this powerful Woman in history ,looked just like US!</p>
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		<title>By: nadia</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-199733</link>
		<dc:creator>nadia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jan 2011 22:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-199733</guid>
		<description>I have watched the documentary called Cleopatra: Portrait of a Killer and it clearly states that Cleopatra had an African mother they based this theory with the recent discovery of her sister’s Arsinoe bones. If any of you are familiar with the story of Cleopatra becoming queen of Egypt you would know that she had to fight her sister Arsinoe to be restore to her throne. It is in discovering her bones that archaeologist, such as Neil Oliver can gives us an insight into the real Ptolemy destiny. To make matters even better they even have a picture of what they believed she even looked like in real life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have watched the documentary called Cleopatra: Portrait of a Killer and it clearly states that Cleopatra had an African mother they based this theory with the recent discovery of her sister’s Arsinoe bones. If any of you are familiar with the story of Cleopatra becoming queen of Egypt you would know that she had to fight her sister Arsinoe to be restore to her throne. It is in discovering her bones that archaeologist, such as Neil Oliver can gives us an insight into the real Ptolemy destiny. To make matters even better they even have a picture of what they believed she even looked like in real life.</p>
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		<title>By: Demetri</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-195157</link>
		<dc:creator>Demetri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Dec 2010 05:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-195157</guid>
		<description>FYROM propagandists are out in full force it seems. Why they hide their ethnic Bulgarian roots and pretend to be &quot;Macedonians&quot; is beyond me. One would think they would be proud and cherish their own ancestors-instead of trying to oppress their own Bulgarian heritage. Truly bizarre.

&quot;We, the undersigned scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, respectfully request that you intervene to clean up some of the historical debris left in southeast Europe by the previous U.S. administration.&quot;

&quot;On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.”  This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great.&quot;

http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FYROM propagandists are out in full force it seems. Why they hide their ethnic Bulgarian roots and pretend to be &#8220;Macedonians&#8221; is beyond me. One would think they would be proud and cherish their own ancestors-instead of trying to oppress their own Bulgarian heritage. Truly bizarre.</p>
<p>&#8220;We, the undersigned scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, respectfully request that you intervene to clean up some of the historical debris left in southeast Europe by the previous U.S. administration.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.”  This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html" rel="nofollow">http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: duane w roller</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-194535</link>
		<dc:creator>duane w roller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Dec 2010 21:43:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-194535</guid>
		<description>I appreciate a scholar of Dr. Bennett&#039;s stature taking the time to make his comments.  While I don&#039;t agree with everything he says, he did point out an error of mine in the original entry: it was not Strabo who mentioned the wives of Cleopatra&#039;s father, but an Egyptian priest.  Dr. Bennett also points out the confusing nature of the material, and reminded me of another theory, that Cleopatra&#039;s mother was actually the wife of her father, which probably would reduce non-Macedonian ancestry even more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate a scholar of Dr. Bennett&#8217;s stature taking the time to make his comments.  While I don&#8217;t agree with everything he says, he did point out an error of mine in the original entry: it was not Strabo who mentioned the wives of Cleopatra&#8217;s father, but an Egyptian priest.  Dr. Bennett also points out the confusing nature of the material, and reminded me of another theory, that Cleopatra&#8217;s mother was actually the wife of her father, which probably would reduce non-Macedonian ancestry even more.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bennett</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-194353</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 20:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-194353</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s hard to disagree with the conclusion of this article -- that Cleopatra&#039;s ethnic ancestry is irrelevant to her career and achievements.  Though I also think that the original article, while a little over the top, had a fair point to make:  there should be no reason, other than acting ability, why Halle Berry or Rashida Jones could not have been cast as Cleopatra.  Or Lucy Liu for that matter.  But that&#039;s modern politics.

That said, there are a few points in this article which could do with some clarification.

In a couple of places, it uses the phrase &quot;sources suggest&quot; to introduce a theory.  This phrase is a little misleading:  these sources are modern scholars, not ancient text.  No ancient text has anything to say about the identity of either Cleopatra&#039;s mother or her grandmother(s).   

Also, Strabo does not say that Cleopatra&#039;s father had multiple wives nor that they were of high status.  What he does say is that Cleopatra&#039;s elder sister was their father&#039;s only legitimate daughter -- and the accuracy of that statement is disputed.  

While it is (most likely) true that Cleopatra spoke Egyptian, it&#039;s a bit of a stretch to infer that this reflects her mother&#039;s influence.  She was clearly a skilled linguist, being able to speak 8 or 9 other languages beside -- including Hebrew, Troglodytic, and &quot;Ethiopian&quot;.  Why is this not evidence that her mother was a Jew? a Troglodyte? Or, indeed, black African?  

The theory that Cleopatra&#039;s mother came from the Egyptian religious elite has been used to explain why her legitimacy was not attacked by Roman sources, by scholars who accept the accuracy of Strabo&#039;s statement.  But exactly the same theory has been proposed for her father&#039;s mother -- to explain why his legitimacy _was_ attacked by Roman sources, even though he was accepted as king in Egypt.  In both cases, it is purely speculative.  It rests on an earlier marriage (whose existence is also disputed) between a Ptolemaic princess (whose mother is unknown) and a High Priest of Ptah.  It is the father of this High Priest who is the most likely subject of the statue found in Algeria.

Cleopatra&#039;s maternal ancestry, regardless of its ethnic makeup, has some relevance to establishing _ancient_ ideas of what constituted dynastic legitimacy.  But the argument about whether she was black, like the argument about whether Macedonians were Greeks, is about _modern_ politics.  It is tiresome and irrelevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s hard to disagree with the conclusion of this article &#8212; that Cleopatra&#8217;s ethnic ancestry is irrelevant to her career and achievements.  Though I also think that the original article, while a little over the top, had a fair point to make:  there should be no reason, other than acting ability, why Halle Berry or Rashida Jones could not have been cast as Cleopatra.  Or Lucy Liu for that matter.  But that&#8217;s modern politics.</p>
<p>That said, there are a few points in this article which could do with some clarification.</p>
<p>In a couple of places, it uses the phrase &#8220;sources suggest&#8221; to introduce a theory.  This phrase is a little misleading:  these sources are modern scholars, not ancient text.  No ancient text has anything to say about the identity of either Cleopatra&#8217;s mother or her grandmother(s).   </p>
<p>Also, Strabo does not say that Cleopatra&#8217;s father had multiple wives nor that they were of high status.  What he does say is that Cleopatra&#8217;s elder sister was their father&#8217;s only legitimate daughter &#8212; and the accuracy of that statement is disputed.  </p>
<p>While it is (most likely) true that Cleopatra spoke Egyptian, it&#8217;s a bit of a stretch to infer that this reflects her mother&#8217;s influence.  She was clearly a skilled linguist, being able to speak 8 or 9 other languages beside &#8212; including Hebrew, Troglodytic, and &#8220;Ethiopian&#8221;.  Why is this not evidence that her mother was a Jew? a Troglodyte? Or, indeed, black African?  </p>
<p>The theory that Cleopatra&#8217;s mother came from the Egyptian religious elite has been used to explain why her legitimacy was not attacked by Roman sources, by scholars who accept the accuracy of Strabo&#8217;s statement.  But exactly the same theory has been proposed for her father&#8217;s mother &#8212; to explain why his legitimacy _was_ attacked by Roman sources, even though he was accepted as king in Egypt.  In both cases, it is purely speculative.  It rests on an earlier marriage (whose existence is also disputed) between a Ptolemaic princess (whose mother is unknown) and a High Priest of Ptah.  It is the father of this High Priest who is the most likely subject of the statue found in Algeria.</p>
<p>Cleopatra&#8217;s maternal ancestry, regardless of its ethnic makeup, has some relevance to establishing _ancient_ ideas of what constituted dynastic legitimacy.  But the argument about whether she was black, like the argument about whether Macedonians were Greeks, is about _modern_ politics.  It is tiresome and irrelevant.</p>
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		<title>By: duane w roller</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-194349</link>
		<dc:creator>duane w roller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 19:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-194349</guid>
		<description>To Kate:   Your comments are worthwhile and interesting but really have nothing to do with Cleopatra herself.

To David Emery:  If there were any Persian blood, it would be so far back as to be miniscule.  Stacy Schiff&#039;s novelistic biography has a good deal of speculation in it.  And you&#039;re right that racial designations can degenerate into numbers and statistics, often used for nefarious purposes.  Your comments demonstrate in the long run the very point I am trying to make: race doesn&#039;t matter, and is usually used negatively.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Kate:   Your comments are worthwhile and interesting but really have nothing to do with Cleopatra herself.</p>
<p>To David Emery:  If there were any Persian blood, it would be so far back as to be miniscule.  Stacy Schiff&#8217;s novelistic biography has a good deal of speculation in it.  And you&#8217;re right that racial designations can degenerate into numbers and statistics, often used for nefarious purposes.  Your comments demonstrate in the long run the very point I am trying to make: race doesn&#8217;t matter, and is usually used negatively.</p>
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		<title>By: David Emery</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-194322</link>
		<dc:creator>David Emery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 17:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-194322</guid>
		<description>I heard Stacy Schiff suggest (book tour interview with Diane Rehm) that there might have been Persian princess in the bloodline.  This makes sense to me, thinking about both the dynastic trend (Egyptian and otherwise) to tie to other ruling dynasties, and in particular the sense of &quot;keep it in the family&quot; (sorry!) between the successors of Alexander.  

And for the record, what does &quot;person of color&quot; mean in this context (or any other).  Is a &#039;classic&#039; light skinned Egyptian a &#039;person of color&#039;?  What about a Persian?  How much pigmentation is required to get this designation, or is this based on other either ethnic/racial characteristics?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I heard Stacy Schiff suggest (book tour interview with Diane Rehm) that there might have been Persian princess in the bloodline.  This makes sense to me, thinking about both the dynastic trend (Egyptian and otherwise) to tie to other ruling dynasties, and in particular the sense of &#8220;keep it in the family&#8221; (sorry!) between the successors of Alexander.  </p>
<p>And for the record, what does &#8220;person of color&#8221; mean in this context (or any other).  Is a &#8216;classic&#8217; light skinned Egyptian a &#8216;person of color&#8217;?  What about a Persian?  How much pigmentation is required to get this designation, or is this based on other either ethnic/racial characteristics?</p>
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		<title>By: duane w roller</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-194182</link>
		<dc:creator>duane w roller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 02:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-194182</guid>
		<description>Afer, I would be curious what the evidence is for this.  As far as I know there is no evidence whatsoever for Cleopatra&#039;s skin color.
Duane W. Roller</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Afer, I would be curious what the evidence is for this.  As far as I know there is no evidence whatsoever for Cleopatra&#8217;s skin color.<br />
Duane W. Roller</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-194168</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 00:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-194168</guid>
		<description>Of course it matters! A white man can easily find hundreds of great white men in the history books. Finding role models and inspiration is more difficult for women, and especially difficult for women of colour. Even I get a little frisson from knowing that Elizabeth I was a redhead like me. I can only try to imagine the psychological impact for a Black woman if one of history&#039;s greatest women, powerful, brilliant, daring, and alluring, was a Black woman like her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course it matters! A white man can easily find hundreds of great white men in the history books. Finding role models and inspiration is more difficult for women, and especially difficult for women of colour. Even I get a little frisson from knowing that Elizabeth I was a redhead like me. I can only try to imagine the psychological impact for a Black woman if one of history&#8217;s greatest women, powerful, brilliant, daring, and alluring, was a Black woman like her.</p>
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		<title>By: Christian</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-194039</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2010 11:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-194039</guid>
		<description>Interesting article, although I too contest the use of the phrase &quot;Macedonian Greek&quot;, although unlike my two learned friends above, I am not motivated by CONTEMPORARY POLITICS (viz. Republic of Macedonia vs Greece over the use of the name)- sticking to a purely ancient historical context here, as is the nature of this text.

The Ancient Greeks had a very good understanding of who were Greek and who were not- there was never a grey area for them. Ancient Macedonians (called &#039;Makedons&#039; by Herodotus and Thucydides) were never considered Greek; stories remain from ancient texts- notably Herodotus- of specific Macedonian kings like Alexander I (Macedon King during the early 5th century) claiming Greek ancestry, from the city-state of Argos I believe. Paraphrasing, he claimed to be:

&quot;A Greek king ruling over a barbarian people&quot;  

Herodotus recalls him going over to Greek side before the Battle of Platea (479BC) and giving advice, despite the fact he was fighting with the Persians. He also recalls him participating in the Olympic games- something you had to be Greek to do. 

It is likely that Herodotus got most of his sources from Athens, who around the mid fifth-century would have wished to paint the Macedonian KING (as opposed to the general people) as Greek in order to maintain a steady supply of pitch and timber from the Macedonian forests, to maintain their navy. Whenever Athens had no use for the Macedonians, she considered them as barbarous as other tribal people north of Thessaly.

The rhetoric of Demosthenes in the fourth-century certainly painted them as such, although this must be taken with a pinch of salt since he had utter political motives. 

The Macedonians that defeated the poleis in 338 at Chaeronea would go on to spread Greek language and traditions over Asia and yes, Egypt...Much like the Romans continued to up to the middle ages. But to class them as &quot;Greek&quot; themselves would be erroneous in my opinion. Although &quot;Macedonians with Hellenistic identity&quot; doesn&#039;t really have such a nice ring to it.

Sorry to waffle, very refreshing article aside from that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article, although I too contest the use of the phrase &#8220;Macedonian Greek&#8221;, although unlike my two learned friends above, I am not motivated by CONTEMPORARY POLITICS (viz. Republic of Macedonia vs Greece over the use of the name)- sticking to a purely ancient historical context here, as is the nature of this text.</p>
<p>The Ancient Greeks had a very good understanding of who were Greek and who were not- there was never a grey area for them. Ancient Macedonians (called &#8216;Makedons&#8217; by Herodotus and Thucydides) were never considered Greek; stories remain from ancient texts- notably Herodotus- of specific Macedonian kings like Alexander I (Macedon King during the early 5th century) claiming Greek ancestry, from the city-state of Argos I believe. Paraphrasing, he claimed to be:</p>
<p>&#8220;A Greek king ruling over a barbarian people&#8221;  </p>
<p>Herodotus recalls him going over to Greek side before the Battle of Platea (479BC) and giving advice, despite the fact he was fighting with the Persians. He also recalls him participating in the Olympic games- something you had to be Greek to do. </p>
<p>It is likely that Herodotus got most of his sources from Athens, who around the mid fifth-century would have wished to paint the Macedonian KING (as opposed to the general people) as Greek in order to maintain a steady supply of pitch and timber from the Macedonian forests, to maintain their navy. Whenever Athens had no use for the Macedonians, she considered them as barbarous as other tribal people north of Thessaly.</p>
<p>The rhetoric of Demosthenes in the fourth-century certainly painted them as such, although this must be taken with a pinch of salt since he had utter political motives. </p>
<p>The Macedonians that defeated the poleis in 338 at Chaeronea would go on to spread Greek language and traditions over Asia and yes, Egypt&#8230;Much like the Romans continued to up to the middle ages. But to class them as &#8220;Greek&#8221; themselves would be erroneous in my opinion. Although &#8220;Macedonians with Hellenistic identity&#8221; doesn&#8217;t really have such a nice ring to it.</p>
<p>Sorry to waffle, very refreshing article aside from that.</p>
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		<title>By: Afer</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-193882</link>
		<dc:creator>Afer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2010 03:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-193882</guid>
		<description>Cleopatra was olive toned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cleopatra was olive toned.</p>
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		<title>By: Rou234</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-193875</link>
		<dc:creator>Rou234</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2010 02:49:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-193875</guid>
		<description>Cleopatra was Macedonian Greek, anyone with a history degree knows ancient Macedonians had a Greek identity and culture or else they wouldn&#039;t have spread Greek culture, identity, language, etc. from one end of the world to the other, and Cleopatra&#039;s native language wouldn&#039;t have been Greek. What&#039;s shameful is to fabricate true history by trying to claim otherwise. CLEOPATRA: look it up, its Greek too and we know in ancient times where passports and identity cards didn&#039;t exist to show one&#039;s ethnic origins their names were used for such things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cleopatra was Macedonian Greek, anyone with a history degree knows ancient Macedonians had a Greek identity and culture or else they wouldn&#8217;t have spread Greek culture, identity, language, etc. from one end of the world to the other, and Cleopatra&#8217;s native language wouldn&#8217;t have been Greek. What&#8217;s shameful is to fabricate true history by trying to claim otherwise. CLEOPATRA: look it up, its Greek too and we know in ancient times where passports and identity cards didn&#8217;t exist to show one&#8217;s ethnic origins their names were used for such things.</p>
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		<title>By: Naumovski</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-193577</link>
		<dc:creator>Naumovski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Dec 2010 05:17:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-193577</guid>
		<description>There is no such thing as Macedonian Greek ethnicity for a historian you dont know much Macedonian and Greek are two separate ethnicities and I find it offensive when you refer to this mix, Macedonians are Macedonians stop distorting history, there is no Greek in this elemant whatsoever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no such thing as Macedonian Greek ethnicity for a historian you dont know much Macedonian and Greek are two separate ethnicities and I find it offensive when you refer to this mix, Macedonians are Macedonians stop distorting history, there is no Greek in this elemant whatsoever.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-193485</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2010 22:11:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-193485</guid>
		<description>It is ironic claiming Cleopatra being Macedonian Greek.There is no such thing as Macedonian Greek.Obviously, the Greek friends do follow Greeces historical falsifications as did this writer.It is shameful to say the least an outsider to fabricate true history.To put it in perspective;The City States were under the Macedonian yoke since 338 BC when the Macedonians defeated them at Chaeronea.Their history ceased to exist till 1829.Remember,Macedonia existed before Greece ever did.Greece annexed part of Macedonia in 1913,Never before Macedonia belonged to Greece.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is ironic claiming Cleopatra being Macedonian Greek.There is no such thing as Macedonian Greek.Obviously, the Greek friends do follow Greeces historical falsifications as did this writer.It is shameful to say the least an outsider to fabricate true history.To put it in perspective;The City States were under the Macedonian yoke since 338 BC when the Macedonians defeated them at Chaeronea.Their history ceased to exist till 1829.Remember,Macedonia existed before Greece ever did.Greece annexed part of Macedonia in 1913,Never before Macedonia belonged to Greece.</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention OUPblog » Blog Archive » Cleopatra’s True Racial Background (and Does it Really Matter?) -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/#comment-193422</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention OUPblog » Blog Archive » Cleopatra’s True Racial Background (and Does it Really Matter?) -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2010 17:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=12636#comment-193422</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Teresa Rolfe Kravtin, Lauren. Lauren said: Controversy over Cleopatra&#039;s true race--but does it matter? http://bit.ly/gH3lvy [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Teresa Rolfe Kravtin, Lauren. Lauren said: Controversy over Cleopatra&#39;s true race&#8211;but does it matter? <a href="http://bit.ly/gH3lvy" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/gH3lvy</a> [...]</p>
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