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	<title>Comments on: Monthly Gleanings: October 2008, Part One</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/monthly-gleanings-october-2008-part-one/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/monthly-gleanings-october-2008-part-one/</link>
	<description>Academic insights for the thinking world.</description>
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		<title>By: mollymooly</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/monthly-gleanings-october-2008-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-147946</link>
		<dc:creator>mollymooly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2249#comment-147946</guid>
		<description>Notice of the Board of Trade, 5th October 1798:
&quot;they must contain the following particulars : name of the ship ; name of the owner, and their place of residence&quot;

Recorded in
&quot;The Despatches, Minutes, and Correspondence, of the Marquess Wellesley, K. G.: During His Administration in India&quot;
Edited by Montgomery Martin
Published by J. Murray, 1836 
vol.2 - Page 736-7</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Notice of the Board of Trade, 5th October 1798:<br />
&#8220;they must contain the following particulars : name of the ship ; name of the owner, and their place of residence&#8221;</p>
<p>Recorded in<br />
&#8220;The Despatches, Minutes, and Correspondence, of the Marquess Wellesley, K. G.: During His Administration in India&#8221;<br />
Edited by Montgomery Martin<br />
Published by J. Murray, 1836<br />
vol.2 &#8211; Page 736-7</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: mollymooly</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/monthly-gleanings-october-2008-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-147945</link>
		<dc:creator>mollymooly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:35:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2249#comment-147945</guid>
		<description>Notice of the Board of Trade, 5th October 1798:
&quot;they must contain the following particulars : name of the ship ; name of the owner, and their place of residence&quot;

Recorded in
&quot;The Despatches, Minutes, and Correspondence, of the Marquess Wellesley, K. G.: During His Administration in India&quot;
Edited by Montgomery Martin
Published by J. Murray, 1836 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?id=d_1WAAAAMAAJ&amp;pg=RA1-PA737&amp;dq=%22name+of+the+owner,+and+their+place+of+residence%22&amp;ei=uYAXSZuPOaDKzQTS6IjJAQ&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;vol.2 - Page 736-7&lt;a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Notice of the Board of Trade, 5th October 1798:<br />
&#8220;they must contain the following particulars : name of the ship ; name of the owner, and their place of residence&#8221;</p>
<p>Recorded in<br />
&#8220;The Despatches, Minutes, and Correspondence, of the Marquess Wellesley, K. G.: During His Administration in India&#8221;<br />
Edited by Montgomery Martin<br />
Published by J. Murray, 1836<br />
<a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=d_1WAAAAMAAJ&amp;pg=RA1-PA737&amp;dq=%22name+of+the+owner,+and+their+place+of+residence%22&amp;ei=uYAXSZuPOaDKzQTS6IjJAQ" rel="nofollow">vol.2 &#8211; Page 736-7</a><a></a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: D. Wilson</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/monthly-gleanings-october-2008-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-147854</link>
		<dc:creator>D. Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 14:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2249#comment-147854</guid>
		<description>Some early examples can be found at Google Books: e.g.:

1889: //The expectations of the patient and their friends may be moderated so far as to be fulfilled; ....//

1904-5: //... because of the peculiar confidential relations between a patient and their physician ....//</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some early examples can be found at Google Books: e.g.:</p>
<p>1889: //The expectations of the patient and their friends may be moderated so far as to be fulfilled; &#8230;.//</p>
<p>1904-5: //&#8230; because of the peculiar confidential relations between a patient and their physician &#8230;.//</p>
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		<title>By: John Cowan</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/monthly-gleanings-october-2008-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-147776</link>
		<dc:creator>John Cowan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:55:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2249#comment-147776</guid>
		<description>I missed your first two postings this month and will reply here.

You object to the use of &lt;i&gt;they&lt;/i&gt; when the antecedent is &lt;i&gt;a student&lt;/i&gt;, &lt;i&gt;a tenant&lt;/i&gt; used indefinitely.  It&#039;s not clear to me whether it&#039;s the presence of &lt;i&gt;a&lt;/i&gt; as distinct from &lt;i&gt;any, every,&lt;/i&gt; etc. that creates the discomfort, or the  use of semantically unbleached nouns.

If the former, I give you Thackeray&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Vanity Fair&lt;/i&gt; xli (1848): &quot;A person can&#039;t help their birth.&quot;  If the latter, I give you Mrs. Gaskell&#039;s &lt;i&gt;North and South&lt;/i&gt; (1855): &quot;I was never aware of any young lady trying to catch me [matrimonially], nor do I believe that anyone has ever given themselves that useless trouble&quot;. (This example is particularly interesting because it shows that indefiniteness rather than gender-inclusiveness is the motive: all the possible referents of the indefinite are female.)  An example of the features combined is said to appear in Doris Lessing&#039;s work, though I do not know the novel in question nor its date: &quot;And how easy the way a man or woman would come in here, glance around, find smiles and pleasant looks waiting for them, then wave and sit down by themselves.&quot;

(For what it&#039;s worth, only about one or two in a thousand of the Google hits for &lt;i&gt;rant&lt;/i&gt; are accompanied by &lt;i&gt;right-wing&lt;/i&gt;, so your use of &quot;usually&quot; is misplaced.)

Since you agree that splitting is not ungrammatical, I fail to understand the basis for a rule like &quot;Split only when you must&quot;.  It has the flavor of the hypothetical rule &quot;Use &lt;i&gt;each&lt;/i&gt; only when you must; &lt;i&gt;every&lt;/i&gt; otherwise&quot;: both draw the natural retort &quot;Why ever?&quot;  Some things in English are just optional, and splitting infinitives is one of them.

The whole point of my earlier comment on Indo-European was to deny that there are such things as &lt;i&gt;essential&lt;/i&gt;, as distinct from frequently appearing, ancestral, or widely used but independently developed, features of that language family.  And there are black Cowans because some of us (notably my daughter) have engaged in what used to be called miscegenation (as you know, &lt;i&gt;mis-&lt;/i&gt; in this word is not the pejorative prefix): wherefore I am white, as my ancestor John J. was, and my grandson &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.flickr.com/photos/7731152@N03/tags/dorian/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dorian Cowan&lt;/i&gt; is black.  It&#039;s as simple as that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I missed your first two postings this month and will reply here.</p>
<p>You object to the use of <i>they</i> when the antecedent is <i>a student</i>, <i>a tenant</i> used indefinitely.  It&#8217;s not clear to me whether it&#8217;s the presence of <i>a</i> as distinct from <i>any, every,</i> etc. that creates the discomfort, or the  use of semantically unbleached nouns.</p>
<p>If the former, I give you Thackeray&#8217;s <i>Vanity Fair</i> xli (1848): &#8220;A person can&#8217;t help their birth.&#8221;  If the latter, I give you Mrs. Gaskell&#8217;s <i>North and South</i> (1855): &#8220;I was never aware of any young lady trying to catch me [matrimonially], nor do I believe that anyone has ever given themselves that useless trouble&#8221;. (This example is particularly interesting because it shows that indefiniteness rather than gender-inclusiveness is the motive: all the possible referents of the indefinite are female.)  An example of the features combined is said to appear in Doris Lessing&#8217;s work, though I do not know the novel in question nor its date: &#8220;And how easy the way a man or woman would come in here, glance around, find smiles and pleasant looks waiting for them, then wave and sit down by themselves.&#8221;</p>
<p>(For what it&#8217;s worth, only about one or two in a thousand of the Google hits for <i>rant</i> are accompanied by <i>right-wing</i>, so your use of &#8220;usually&#8221; is misplaced.)</p>
<p>Since you agree that splitting is not ungrammatical, I fail to understand the basis for a rule like &#8220;Split only when you must&#8221;.  It has the flavor of the hypothetical rule &#8220;Use <i>each</i> only when you must; <i>every</i> otherwise&#8221;: both draw the natural retort &#8220;Why ever?&#8221;  Some things in English are just optional, and splitting infinitives is one of them.</p>
<p>The whole point of my earlier comment on Indo-European was to deny that there are such things as <i>essential</i>, as distinct from frequently appearing, ancestral, or widely used but independently developed, features of that language family.  And there are black Cowans because some of us (notably my daughter) have engaged in what used to be called miscegenation (as you know, <i>mis-</i> in this word is not the pejorative prefix): wherefore I am white, as my ancestor John J. was, and my grandson <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7731152@N03/tags/dorian/" rel="nofollow">Dorian Cowan is black.  It&#8217;s as simple as that.</a></p>
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