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	<title>Comments on: The Tenant&#8217;s Dilemma, or,  When Did People Begin to Say They for &#8220;He (Or She)&#8221;?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/</link>
	<description>Academic insights for the thinking world.</description>
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		<title>By: Monthly Gleanings: April 2009 : OUPblog</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-150388</link>
		<dc:creator>Monthly Gleanings: April 2009 : OUPblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:05:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-150388</guid>
		<description>[...] fry. 1) Generic they. In my old polemical notes on the pronouns they and their being used with reference to a single person, I should have made it clear that this usage [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] fry. 1) Generic they. In my old polemical notes on the pronouns they and their being used with reference to a single person, I should have made it clear that this usage [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Monthly Gleanings: October 2008, Part One : OUPblog</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147768</link>
		<dc:creator>Monthly Gleanings: October 2008, Part One : OUPblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147768</guid>
		<description>[...] English and generic they.  My objections to the use of generic they aroused a good deal of interest, and after Andrew Sullivan reproduced part of my essay, it traveled [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] English and generic they.  My objections to the use of generic they aroused a good deal of interest, and after Andrew Sullivan reproduced part of my essay, it traveled [...]</p>
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		<title>By: mollymooly</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147686</link>
		<dc:creator>mollymooly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147686</guid>
		<description>I use the singular-they construction, and see no reason to revive the now old-fashioned common-he.  However, I regret that most commentators have ignored the most interesting part of the post: the contention that the use of singular-they is a recent innovation for antecedents outside a small group (pronouns, &quot;person&quot;).

If this contention is correct (and no poster has offered any evidence to the contrary), then usage manuals and dictionaries that argue in favour of singular-they by saying &quot;it&#039;s been used continuously for centuries&quot; are making a statement that is misleading at best.  Future generations of apologists for &quot;they&quot; will have to construct alternative justifications, and will owe Mr Liberman a debt for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I use the singular-they construction, and see no reason to revive the now old-fashioned common-he.  However, I regret that most commentators have ignored the most interesting part of the post: the contention that the use of singular-they is a recent innovation for antecedents outside a small group (pronouns, &#8220;person&#8221;).</p>
<p>If this contention is correct (and no poster has offered any evidence to the contrary), then usage manuals and dictionaries that argue in favour of singular-they by saying &#8220;it&#8217;s been used continuously for centuries&#8221; are making a statement that is misleading at best.  Future generations of apologists for &#8220;they&#8221; will have to construct alternative justifications, and will owe Mr Liberman a debt for that.</p>
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		<title>By: Nijma</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147631</link>
		<dc:creator>Nijma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147631</guid>
		<description>&quot;He&quot; has never been a gender neutral pronoun. Looking back even as little as a few hundred years, when people wrote stuff like &quot;one man, one vote&quot; it wasn&#039;t because the secret meaning of &quot;man&quot; is really &quot;man and woman&quot;.  It was because women didn&#039;t vote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;He&#8221; has never been a gender neutral pronoun. Looking back even as little as a few hundred years, when people wrote stuff like &#8220;one man, one vote&#8221; it wasn&#8217;t because the secret meaning of &#8220;man&#8221; is really &#8220;man and woman&#8221;.  It was because women didn&#8217;t vote.</p>
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		<title>By: Kathryn in California</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147593</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathryn in California</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 06:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147593</guid>
		<description>Christopher, 

Have you looked at Hofstadher’s &quot;Person-paper&quot; I linked above? 

His counterfactual includes Armstrong&#039;s statement: &#039;&quot;One small step for a white, a giant step for whitekind.&quot; This noble sentiment is anything but racist; it is simply a celebration of a glorious moment in the history of White.&#039; 

&quot;...There is great beauty to a phrase such as &quot;All whites are created equal.&quot; Our forebosses who framed the Declaration of Independence well understood the poetry of our language. Think how ugly it would be to say &quot;All persons are created equal,&quot; or &quot;All whites and blacks are created equal.&quot; Besides, as any schoolwhitey can tell you, such phrases are redundant. In most contexts, it is self-evident when &quot;white&quot; is being used in an inclusive sense, in which case it subsumes members of the darker race just as much as fairskins.

There is nothing denigrating to black people in being subsumed under the rubric &quot;white&quot;-no more than under the rubric &quot;person.&quot; After all, white is a mixture of all the colors of the rainbow, including black. Used inclusively, the word &quot;white&quot; has no connotations whatsoever of race. Yet many people are hung up on this point. &quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christopher, </p>
<p>Have you looked at Hofstadher’s &#8220;Person-paper&#8221; I linked above? </p>
<p>His counterfactual includes Armstrong&#8217;s statement: &#8216;&#8221;One small step for a white, a giant step for whitekind.&#8221; This noble sentiment is anything but racist; it is simply a celebration of a glorious moment in the history of White.&#8217; </p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;There is great beauty to a phrase such as &#8220;All whites are created equal.&#8221; Our forebosses who framed the Declaration of Independence well understood the poetry of our language. Think how ugly it would be to say &#8220;All persons are created equal,&#8221; or &#8220;All whites and blacks are created equal.&#8221; Besides, as any schoolwhitey can tell you, such phrases are redundant. In most contexts, it is self-evident when &#8220;white&#8221; is being used in an inclusive sense, in which case it subsumes members of the darker race just as much as fairskins.</p>
<p>There is nothing denigrating to black people in being subsumed under the rubric &#8220;white&#8221;-no more than under the rubric &#8220;person.&#8221; After all, white is a mixture of all the colors of the rainbow, including black. Used inclusively, the word &#8220;white&#8221; has no connotations whatsoever of race. Yet many people are hung up on this point. &#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147588</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147588</guid>
		<description>Hellestal is egregiously wrong on one point.  
&quot;They&quot; does not work with tenant &quot;just fine&quot;. To say that it is grammatically correct is an odd statement from people whose whole project is based on denying the possibility of correctness (hence the irritating creation of &quot;prescriptive&quot; as a pejoritive) and to say it is elegant is untrue.  To paraphrase Hellestal himself, if anyone says it is elegant I question how good a writer he is.  It is the most inelegant thing I have ever heard.

Dr. BB says:

&quot;The decision that disagreement in gender is less problematic than disagreement in number is entirely arbitrary.&quot;  

This does not appear to me to be true.  When I begin a sentence with &quot;The tenant&quot; there is at least a fifty percent chance that the tenant in question is male, whereas there is never a possibility that an individual tenant in a group.  

Contrary to Ophelia Benson, when Isaiah Berlin et al. used &quot;Man&quot; to refer to the collective human race it was not &quot;the fashion&quot;; it was the English language and still is.  Consider the following:

&quot;Oh what a piece of work is man!&quot; (Hamlet--note the ironic coda to the famous speech: Man delights not me--no, nor Woman either: Hamlet meant Man in its universal, R&amp;G in its specifically masculine sense.  If we rob the language of the universal &quot;Man&quot; we rob Shakespeare of one of his best double-entendres.)

&quot;Of Man&#039;s first disobedience...&quot; (Paradise Lost--considerably ironic here as the disobedience in question was 50% the work of Eve.)

&quot;...and justify the ways of God to man&quot; (Pope, Essay on Man)

&quot;Thou madest Life in Man and Brute&quot; (Tennyson, In Memoriam)

&quot;Poet and sculptor, do the work
Nor let the modish painter shirk
What his great forefathers did,
Bring the soul of man to God,
Make him fill the cradles right&quot; (Yeats) 

One could go on.  The point is that in addition to referring to a male individual, the word Man also refers to any member of the human race, and also to the race collectively; so do the masculine pronouns--in other words they refer not only to &quot;vir&quot; but also to &quot;homo&quot;.  This has never even been questioned; read Hannah Arendt and there too one will find it on virtually every page.  

I understand completely that this is distasteful to numbers of women. There are various elegant solutions to it; one can avoid singular abstract antecedents altogether (say &quot;tenents who...&quot;, for example).  

I personally am quite sympathetic with attempts to vary the use of the abstract he with the abstract she, especially in anecdotes which conjure a particular if unnamed individual who could very well be a woman.  However there is a danger with the anglo-saxonists usage of she: it could sound as if she is saying that the idea applies only to women.  The reverse is not true of the masculine pronoun.  

Finally, I wonder whether the advocates of gender-neutrality realize the degree to which they run the risk of weakening (I had almost said &quot;neutering&quot; our language.  &quot;Person of the Year&quot; is insipid and offensive to anyone with taste.  A civilized society will recognize the contributions of great women as often as those of great men; and if Toni Morrison, for example, should win the prize, it will be, for that year, Woman of the Year.  But person is pallid.  And there are things we cannot say without Man.  Pope&#039;s Essay on Man which I quoted from before cannot become &quot;Essay on Humanity&quot; without strain.  And consider Armstrong&#039;s &quot;One small step for a man; one giant leap for mankind.&quot;  Take the titles of two books by Jung: &quot;Modern Man in Search of A Soul&quot; and &quot;Man and His Symbols&quot;.  Try translating those without fatal weakening.  &quot;The Modern Person in Search of a Soul&quot;?  &quot;The Person and Their Symbols&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hellestal is egregiously wrong on one point.<br />
&#8220;They&#8221; does not work with tenant &#8220;just fine&#8221;. To say that it is grammatically correct is an odd statement from people whose whole project is based on denying the possibility of correctness (hence the irritating creation of &#8220;prescriptive&#8221; as a pejoritive) and to say it is elegant is untrue.  To paraphrase Hellestal himself, if anyone says it is elegant I question how good a writer he is.  It is the most inelegant thing I have ever heard.</p>
<p>Dr. BB says:</p>
<p>&#8220;The decision that disagreement in gender is less problematic than disagreement in number is entirely arbitrary.&#8221;  </p>
<p>This does not appear to me to be true.  When I begin a sentence with &#8220;The tenant&#8221; there is at least a fifty percent chance that the tenant in question is male, whereas there is never a possibility that an individual tenant in a group.  </p>
<p>Contrary to Ophelia Benson, when Isaiah Berlin et al. used &#8220;Man&#8221; to refer to the collective human race it was not &#8220;the fashion&#8221;; it was the English language and still is.  Consider the following:</p>
<p>&#8220;Oh what a piece of work is man!&#8221; (Hamlet&#8211;note the ironic coda to the famous speech: Man delights not me&#8211;no, nor Woman either: Hamlet meant Man in its universal, R&amp;G in its specifically masculine sense.  If we rob the language of the universal &#8220;Man&#8221; we rob Shakespeare of one of his best double-entendres.)</p>
<p>&#8220;Of Man&#8217;s first disobedience&#8230;&#8221; (Paradise Lost&#8211;considerably ironic here as the disobedience in question was 50% the work of Eve.)</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;and justify the ways of God to man&#8221; (Pope, Essay on Man)</p>
<p>&#8220;Thou madest Life in Man and Brute&#8221; (Tennyson, In Memoriam)</p>
<p>&#8220;Poet and sculptor, do the work<br />
Nor let the modish painter shirk<br />
What his great forefathers did,<br />
Bring the soul of man to God,<br />
Make him fill the cradles right&#8221; (Yeats) </p>
<p>One could go on.  The point is that in addition to referring to a male individual, the word Man also refers to any member of the human race, and also to the race collectively; so do the masculine pronouns&#8211;in other words they refer not only to &#8220;vir&#8221; but also to &#8220;homo&#8221;.  This has never even been questioned; read Hannah Arendt and there too one will find it on virtually every page.  </p>
<p>I understand completely that this is distasteful to numbers of women. There are various elegant solutions to it; one can avoid singular abstract antecedents altogether (say &#8220;tenents who&#8230;&#8221;, for example).  </p>
<p>I personally am quite sympathetic with attempts to vary the use of the abstract he with the abstract she, especially in anecdotes which conjure a particular if unnamed individual who could very well be a woman.  However there is a danger with the anglo-saxonists usage of she: it could sound as if she is saying that the idea applies only to women.  The reverse is not true of the masculine pronoun.  </p>
<p>Finally, I wonder whether the advocates of gender-neutrality realize the degree to which they run the risk of weakening (I had almost said &#8220;neutering&#8221; our language.  &#8220;Person of the Year&#8221; is insipid and offensive to anyone with taste.  A civilized society will recognize the contributions of great women as often as those of great men; and if Toni Morrison, for example, should win the prize, it will be, for that year, Woman of the Year.  But person is pallid.  And there are things we cannot say without Man.  Pope&#8217;s Essay on Man which I quoted from before cannot become &#8220;Essay on Humanity&#8221; without strain.  And consider Armstrong&#8217;s &#8220;One small step for a man; one giant leap for mankind.&#8221;  Take the titles of two books by Jung: &#8220;Modern Man in Search of A Soul&#8221; and &#8220;Man and His Symbols&#8221;.  Try translating those without fatal weakening.  &#8220;The Modern Person in Search of a Soul&#8221;?  &#8220;The Person and Their Symbols&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: A poster</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147587</link>
		<dc:creator>A poster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147587</guid>
		<description>How many people is everybody?  One?  Or more than one?

Every roomful of freshman composition students I&#039;ve ever taught will always vote &quot;more than one.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How many people is everybody?  One?  Or more than one?</p>
<p>Every roomful of freshman composition students I&#8217;ve ever taught will always vote &#8220;more than one.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: MNPundit</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147585</link>
		<dc:creator>MNPundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147585</guid>
		<description>For the record, one of my favorite writing constructions is the silent exclamation point.

For example: &quot;Someone is arguing(!) about the use of they!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, one of my favorite writing constructions is the silent exclamation point.</p>
<p>For example: &#8220;Someone is arguing(!) about the use of they!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: A-gu</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147580</link>
		<dc:creator>A-gu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:59:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147580</guid>
		<description>Your article nearly made my head explode. 

Please do not take such a prescriptive view, and please do not claim generic &quot;they&quot; was somehow forced upon the English language as part of an anti-sexism movement -- my 85-year-old great-grandmother from West Texas uses it, and so do I. And school didn&#039;t teach either of us this usage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your article nearly made my head explode. </p>
<p>Please do not take such a prescriptive view, and please do not claim generic &#8220;they&#8221; was somehow forced upon the English language as part of an anti-sexism movement &#8212; my 85-year-old great-grandmother from West Texas uses it, and so do I. And school didn&#8217;t teach either of us this usage.</p>
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		<title>By: neil</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147577</link>
		<dc:creator>neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 01:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147577</guid>
		<description>brilliant!

I have always hated the use of &#039;they&#039; to refer to a single subject.  Not that I particularly enjoy having to write &#039;his or her&#039; over and over in a paper, but &#039;they&#039; just sounds wrong!

I have to say, however, that, lately, I have noticed much more of the use of &#039;she&#039; to refer to a single subject, regardless of any actual actual knowledge of the subject&#039;s gender.  A bit of linguistic affirmative action (i know, a very crude analogy) perhaps, but at least it&#039;s arithmetically correct.  What do you think of this newer trend?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>brilliant!</p>
<p>I have always hated the use of &#8216;they&#8217; to refer to a single subject.  Not that I particularly enjoy having to write &#8216;his or her&#8217; over and over in a paper, but &#8216;they&#8217; just sounds wrong!</p>
<p>I have to say, however, that, lately, I have noticed much more of the use of &#8217;she&#8217; to refer to a single subject, regardless of any actual actual knowledge of the subject&#8217;s gender.  A bit of linguistic affirmative action (i know, a very crude analogy) perhaps, but at least it&#8217;s arithmetically correct.  What do you think of this newer trend?</p>
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		<title>By: Ophelia Benson</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147576</link>
		<dc:creator>Ophelia Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147576</guid>
		<description>&quot;A noted Anglo-Saxonist (a woman) writes: “…a passage explains that no person, however depraved, if she looks at her heart…” I wish she had said they—their, for in her zeal she distorted the meaning of the passage: it is addressed to everybody rather than to sinning women.&quot;

Oh come on - you can&#039;t be that blinkered. How many millions of passages are addressed to everybody rather than to sinning &lt;i&gt;men&lt;/i&gt; yet nevertheless say he-his? Why is it worse to use female pronouns than it is to use male pronouns?

Try reading some Isaiah Berlin or (1970s-vintage) Richard Swinburne (appropriate for OUP blog!) with this thought in mind. They are addressing and discussing everybody, but they invariably and incessantly (multiple times on every page) say &#039;a man&#039; when they mean &#039;a person&#039; and &#039;men&#039; when they mean people. It looks (to me anyway) positively perverse - as if they were going out of their way to be annoying (which I&#039;m sure they weren&#039;t - it was just the fashion). It also, oddly for philosophers, makes what they are saying significantly unclear and deceptive, which can&#039;t have been their intention.

This idea that &#039;he&#039; is fine while &#039;she&#039; is peculiar is not as bad but it&#039;s still mistaken and peculiarly obtuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A noted Anglo-Saxonist (a woman) writes: “…a passage explains that no person, however depraved, if she looks at her heart…” I wish she had said they—their, for in her zeal she distorted the meaning of the passage: it is addressed to everybody rather than to sinning women.&#8221;</p>
<p>Oh come on &#8211; you can&#8217;t be that blinkered. How many millions of passages are addressed to everybody rather than to sinning <i>men</i> yet nevertheless say he-his? Why is it worse to use female pronouns than it is to use male pronouns?</p>
<p>Try reading some Isaiah Berlin or (1970s-vintage) Richard Swinburne (appropriate for OUP blog!) with this thought in mind. They are addressing and discussing everybody, but they invariably and incessantly (multiple times on every page) say &#8216;a man&#8217; when they mean &#8216;a person&#8217; and &#8216;men&#8217; when they mean people. It looks (to me anyway) positively perverse &#8211; as if they were going out of their way to be annoying (which I&#8217;m sure they weren&#8217;t &#8211; it was just the fashion). It also, oddly for philosophers, makes what they are saying significantly unclear and deceptive, which can&#8217;t have been their intention.</p>
<p>This idea that &#8216;he&#8217; is fine while &#8217;she&#8217; is peculiar is not as bad but it&#8217;s still mistaken and peculiarly obtuse.</p>
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		<title>By: Ophelia Benson</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147573</link>
		<dc:creator>Ophelia Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:06:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147573</guid>
		<description>&quot;A noted Anglo-Saxonist (a woman) writes: “…a passage explains that no person, however depraved, if she looks at her heart…” I wish she had said they—their, for in her zeal she distorted the meaning of the passage: it is addressed to everybody rather than to sinning women.&quot;

Oh come on - you can&#039;t be that blinkered. How many millions of passages are addressed to everybody rather than to sinning &lt;i&gt;men&lt;/i&gt; yet nevertheless say he-his? Why is it worse to use female pronouns than it is to use male pronouns?

Try reading some Isaiah Berlin or (1970s-vintage) Richard Swinburne (appropriate for OUP blog!) with this thought in mind. They are addressing and discussing everybody, but they invariably and incessantly (multiple times on every page) say &#039;a man&#039; when they mean &#039;a person&#039; and &#039;men&#039; when they mean people. It looks (to me anyway) positively perverse - as if they were going out of their way to be annoying (which I&#039;m sure they weren&#039;t - it was just the fashion). It also, oddly for philosophers, makes what they are saying significantly unclear and deceptive, which can&#039;t have been their intention.

This idea that &#039;he&#039; is fine while &#039;she&#039; is peculiar is not as bad but it&#039;s still...mistaken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A noted Anglo-Saxonist (a woman) writes: “…a passage explains that no person, however depraved, if she looks at her heart…” I wish she had said they—their, for in her zeal she distorted the meaning of the passage: it is addressed to everybody rather than to sinning women.&#8221;</p>
<p>Oh come on &#8211; you can&#8217;t be that blinkered. How many millions of passages are addressed to everybody rather than to sinning <i>men</i> yet nevertheless say he-his? Why is it worse to use female pronouns than it is to use male pronouns?</p>
<p>Try reading some Isaiah Berlin or (1970s-vintage) Richard Swinburne (appropriate for OUP blog!) with this thought in mind. They are addressing and discussing everybody, but they invariably and incessantly (multiple times on every page) say &#8216;a man&#8217; when they mean &#8216;a person&#8217; and &#8216;men&#8217; when they mean people. It looks (to me anyway) positively perverse &#8211; as if they were going out of their way to be annoying (which I&#8217;m sure they weren&#8217;t &#8211; it was just the fashion). It also, oddly for philosophers, makes what they are saying significantly unclear and deceptive, which can&#8217;t have been their intention.</p>
<p>This idea that &#8216;he&#8217; is fine while &#8217;she&#8217; is peculiar is not as bad but it&#8217;s still&#8230;mistaken.</p>
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		<title>By: Janus Daniels</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147571</link>
		<dc:creator>Janus Daniels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 07:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147571</guid>
		<description>What Aaron said.
The use of &quot;they&quot; nearly always makes a clear improvement in accuracy of meaning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Aaron said.<br />
The use of &#8220;they&#8221; nearly always makes a clear improvement in accuracy of meaning.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew M</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147569</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 04:09:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147569</guid>
		<description>&quot;Several decades ago, schoolchildren were taught to use they in reference to any single noun.&quot; 

No they weren&#039;t.  Singular &quot;they&quot; is right up there with &quot;ain&#039;t&quot; on the list of things we do not allow in English class.  This might be taught now, but it certainly was not taught in the past.  

&quot;Our best dictionaries give away the truth.&quot;

  &quot;Ain&#039;t&quot; used to be absent from dictionaries until about the same time as singular &quot;they&quot;, but that doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s a new word.  It&#039;s just that dictionaries reflected standard educated usage, which until recently virulently suppressed these forms.   

And as for your horror cases, they have the same  kind of meaning that &quot;indefinite&quot; pronouns have.  Nominal phrases like &quot;the American borrower&quot; or &quot;a person&quot;, like &quot;everyone&quot;, do not have to make reference to any actual people.  In the cases you describe, they don&#039;t.  It&#039;s when this reference is lacking that &quot;they&quot; naturally comes up.  

The usage of &quot;a fisherman&quot; is an example of an indefinite whose referent irks you.  That usage, for all I know, is an extension of the indefinite usage, and it might actually be new.  &quot;A fisherman&quot; does have a specific referent, but the *identity* of that referent is unknown to the writer.  The student who wrote that probably didn&#039;t read the book very well, but their English is just fine.  (THEIR English...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Several decades ago, schoolchildren were taught to use they in reference to any single noun.&#8221; </p>
<p>No they weren&#8217;t.  Singular &#8220;they&#8221; is right up there with &#8220;ain&#8217;t&#8221; on the list of things we do not allow in English class.  This might be taught now, but it certainly was not taught in the past.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Our best dictionaries give away the truth.&#8221;</p>
<p>  &#8220;Ain&#8217;t&#8221; used to be absent from dictionaries until about the same time as singular &#8220;they&#8221;, but that doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s a new word.  It&#8217;s just that dictionaries reflected standard educated usage, which until recently virulently suppressed these forms.   </p>
<p>And as for your horror cases, they have the same  kind of meaning that &#8220;indefinite&#8221; pronouns have.  Nominal phrases like &#8220;the American borrower&#8221; or &#8220;a person&#8221;, like &#8220;everyone&#8221;, do not have to make reference to any actual people.  In the cases you describe, they don&#8217;t.  It&#8217;s when this reference is lacking that &#8220;they&#8221; naturally comes up.  </p>
<p>The usage of &#8220;a fisherman&#8221; is an example of an indefinite whose referent irks you.  That usage, for all I know, is an extension of the indefinite usage, and it might actually be new.  &#8220;A fisherman&#8221; does have a specific referent, but the *identity* of that referent is unknown to the writer.  The student who wrote that probably didn&#8217;t read the book very well, but their English is just fine.  (THEIR English&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147566</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 00:08:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147566</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;A noted Anglo-Saxonist (a woman) writes: “…a passage explains that no person, however depraved, if she looks at her heart…” I wish she had said they—their, for in her zeal she distorted the meaning of the passage: it is addressed to everybody rather than to sinning women.&lt;/i&gt;

Curious. If she had written “…a passage explains that no person, however depraved, if he looks at his heart…” would you have complained that the meaning was distorted, obviously thus then applying only to sinning men? Wager you wouldn&#039;t.

The whole point of using &quot;her&quot; as a gender neutral pronoun is that there is no such thing as a gender neutral pronoun. Using the feminine is just shocking enough to make you notice that. If it happens often enough, perhaps you&#039;ll get used to it -- or find yourself an advocate of &quot;they&quot;.

I do find &quot;they&quot; aesthetically displeasing, but consider gender equity more important than my own sense of aesthetics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>A noted Anglo-Saxonist (a woman) writes: “…a passage explains that no person, however depraved, if she looks at her heart…” I wish she had said they—their, for in her zeal she distorted the meaning of the passage: it is addressed to everybody rather than to sinning women.</i></p>
<p>Curious. If she had written “…a passage explains that no person, however depraved, if he looks at his heart…” would you have complained that the meaning was distorted, obviously thus then applying only to sinning men? Wager you wouldn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>The whole point of using &#8220;her&#8221; as a gender neutral pronoun is that there is no such thing as a gender neutral pronoun. Using the feminine is just shocking enough to make you notice that. If it happens often enough, perhaps you&#8217;ll get used to it &#8212; or find yourself an advocate of &#8220;they&#8221;.</p>
<p>I do find &#8220;they&#8221; aesthetically displeasing, but consider gender equity more important than my own sense of aesthetics.</p>
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		<title>By: Kathryn in California</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147565</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathryn in California</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 23:25:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147565</guid>
		<description>I would point to Hofstadher&#039;s
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; A Person Paper on Purity in Language&lt;/a&gt; as a counterfactual. Replacing a grammatical error with a  category error also grates. 

Of Fowler&#039;s three makeshifts, A was clumsy, B was to be used only when one couldn&#039;t risk C (yet, he notes, B is  not condemned by the OED), and C was the convention when &quot;sex is not conspicuous or important.&quot; If sex has become neither inconspicuous nor unimportant, then C has become risky.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would point to Hofstadher&#8217;s<br />
<a href="http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html" rel="nofollow"> A Person Paper on Purity in Language</a> as a counterfactual. Replacing a grammatical error with a  category error also grates. </p>
<p>Of Fowler&#8217;s three makeshifts, A was clumsy, B was to be used only when one couldn&#8217;t risk C (yet, he notes, B is  not condemned by the OED), and C was the convention when &#8220;sex is not conspicuous or important.&#8221; If sex has become neither inconspicuous nor unimportant, then C has become risky.</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse F</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147564</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 22:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147564</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right; the proper solution, which I&#039;ve been following without problem for the last few years, is to simply use &quot;her&quot; as the generic singular pronoun. The female gender is, empirically, the generic gender—think &quot;parthenogenesis&quot;—and there&#039;s no reason our language shouldn&#039;t recognize this fact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right; the proper solution, which I&#8217;ve been following without problem for the last few years, is to simply use &#8220;her&#8221; as the generic singular pronoun. The female gender is, empirically, the generic gender—think &#8220;parthenogenesis&#8221;—and there&#8217;s no reason our language shouldn&#8217;t recognize this fact.</p>
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		<title>By: Tucker Hope</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147562</link>
		<dc:creator>Tucker Hope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 21:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147562</guid>
		<description>I agree with the last post.  They obviously know what they are talking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the last post.  They obviously know what they are talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Grammar Nazi Alert! &#8220;They&#8221; versus &#8220;he or she&#8221; as a singular article. &#171; Clantily Scad: The Dyslexistentialist Musings of a Misanthropic Twat</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147561</link>
		<dc:creator>Grammar Nazi Alert! &#8220;They&#8221; versus &#8220;he or she&#8221; as a singular article. &#171; Clantily Scad: The Dyslexistentialist Musings of a Misanthropic Twat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147561</guid>
		<description>[...] on October 11, 2008. Filed under: Uncategorized &#124;  http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/ :  In the first edition of Random House Unabridged Dictionary (1966), the entry they occupies eight [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on October 11, 2008. Filed under: Uncategorized |  <a href="http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/" rel="nofollow">http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/</a> :  In the first edition of Random House Unabridged Dictionary (1966), the entry they occupies eight [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mormon Socialist</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147560</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Socialist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 19:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147560</guid>
		<description>I have heard this argument in a variety of forms, and while I appreciate Anatoly&#039;s strength of feeling on the subject, I don&#039;t believe the application of this kind of logic is any help.

After all, many a writer has opined at length on the illogicality of the double negative in English, and the impediment it poses to understanding; none of which prevents its widespread and correct use in many of the languages of continental Europe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have heard this argument in a variety of forms, and while I appreciate Anatoly&#8217;s strength of feeling on the subject, I don&#8217;t believe the application of this kind of logic is any help.</p>
<p>After all, many a writer has opined at length on the illogicality of the double negative in English, and the impediment it poses to understanding; none of which prevents its widespread and correct use in many of the languages of continental Europe.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147557</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 17:28:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147557</guid>
		<description>A very interesting and informative article followed by a snotty comment by a jerk.  Can morons like Aaron Kangas please understand one simple idea?  That language changes does not mean that every change is a good one.  If you think that the general existence of change means that all change must be accepted without criticism you are going into a very dangerous place indeed--one where the mere existence of something is its own justification.  If there is more crime than hitherto, or inferior health care, are you going to say &quot;things change, get over it?&quot;  The response of a thinking man to the criticism of a change in usage which he personally likes is to argue for the beneficial nature of the particular change in question--not to assert that change itself, of any kind, is good. (Or simply so inevitable that even to protest against it is in bad taste?)  But that would require thinking which Mr. Kangas and his (depressingly numerous) ilk are not capable of.  

As for the article, Mr. Liberman is the first person I have seen to render a fairly useful contribution to the debate: he has distinguished between antecedents like &quot;everone&quot; and positively discordant cases in which an unambiguously singular antecedent gets a &quot;they&quot;.  &quot;Everyone should open their books&quot; is wrong (I will still say &quot;his book&quot;) but not egregious; &quot;tell your friend to wait and I&#039;ll get back to them&quot; (which I&#039;ve heard even when the friend in question was known to be a man) is abominable.

Now can Mr. Liberman favor us with his opinion on another bit of usage?  On the phone I often hear (from recorded messages of course) &quot;Your call will be answered in the order it was recieved&quot;.  Can that be acceptable?  Should it not be &quot;in the order in which it was recieved?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very interesting and informative article followed by a snotty comment by a jerk.  Can morons like Aaron Kangas please understand one simple idea?  That language changes does not mean that every change is a good one.  If you think that the general existence of change means that all change must be accepted without criticism you are going into a very dangerous place indeed&#8211;one where the mere existence of something is its own justification.  If there is more crime than hitherto, or inferior health care, are you going to say &#8220;things change, get over it?&#8221;  The response of a thinking man to the criticism of a change in usage which he personally likes is to argue for the beneficial nature of the particular change in question&#8211;not to assert that change itself, of any kind, is good. (Or simply so inevitable that even to protest against it is in bad taste?)  But that would require thinking which Mr. Kangas and his (depressingly numerous) ilk are not capable of.  </p>
<p>As for the article, Mr. Liberman is the first person I have seen to render a fairly useful contribution to the debate: he has distinguished between antecedents like &#8220;everone&#8221; and positively discordant cases in which an unambiguously singular antecedent gets a &#8220;they&#8221;.  &#8220;Everyone should open their books&#8221; is wrong (I will still say &#8220;his book&#8221;) but not egregious; &#8220;tell your friend to wait and I&#8217;ll get back to them&#8221; (which I&#8217;ve heard even when the friend in question was known to be a man) is abominable.</p>
<p>Now can Mr. Liberman favor us with his opinion on another bit of usage?  On the phone I often hear (from recorded messages of course) &#8220;Your call will be answered in the order it was recieved&#8221;.  Can that be acceptable?  Should it not be &#8220;in the order in which it was recieved?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: pdb</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147556</link>
		<dc:creator>pdb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 16:27:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147556</guid>
		<description>So if &quot;using he as a generalizing pronoun is silly, but it is desirable that a medicine be not worse than the disease&quot; then what is the proper medicine?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So if &#8220;using he as a generalizing pronoun is silly, but it is desirable that a medicine be not worse than the disease&#8221; then what is the proper medicine?</p>
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		<title>By: Steven</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147555</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 16:17:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147555</guid>
		<description>Seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: In Praise of &#8220;They&#8221; for the Singular Subject &#171; Steven White</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147554</link>
		<dc:creator>In Praise of &#8220;They&#8221; for the Singular Subject &#171; Steven White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 16:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147554</guid>
		<description>[...] 11, 2008 by stevenwhite    Via Andrew Sullivan, Anatoly Liberman does not approve of &#8220;they&#8221; replacing &#8220;he/she&#8221; for a singular subject. Maybe it&#8217;s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 11, 2008 by stevenwhite    Via Andrew Sullivan, Anatoly Liberman does not approve of &#8220;they&#8221; replacing &#8220;he/she&#8221; for a singular subject. Maybe it&#8217;s [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Pechmann</title>
		<link>http://blog.oup.com/2008/10/anatolyliberman-plurals/comment-page-1/#comment-147553</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Pechmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 16:14:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oup.com/?p=2183#comment-147553</guid>
		<description>Even though I am progressive and extremely liberal, I don&#039;t associate the noun “rant” with the adjective rightwing. Perhaps I&#039;m in the minority. I liked it when a professor once refered to something I wrote as a “screed”. I had never heard the word before and looked it up in the dictionary. One definition I remember identified screed as a drunken rant. Even now, when my drinking has all but stopped, I still love the word. I’ve many a screed left in me.

It really is hard trying to make non-sexist language comply with the rules of grammar without recasting the sentence you&#039;re writing. Personally, I&#039;m pissed at the abuse of exclamation points that has taken hold. It&#039;s uncalled for and devalues the power of this punctuation mark. While I can see the reason people mess up pronoun agreement, I just don&#039;t understand why they’ll punctuate a sentence with &lt;em&gt;!!!&lt;/em&gt;. I may not be a great grammarian, but it seems one should know a word or sentence doesn&#039;t become more exclamatory by adding multiple exclamation points. It just defies logic. I can only think the advent of e-mail and text messaging has caused this usage to take hold. I always think I&#039;m reading the diary of a 4th grade schoolgirl when I see 2, 3, or more exclamation points.

In case you&#039;re wondering, I found your article by following a link on &lt;a href=&quot;http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Andrew Sullivan&lt;/a&gt;&#039;s blog. I&#039;m sure I’m not the only one.

Cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even though I am progressive and extremely liberal, I don&#8217;t associate the noun “rant” with the adjective rightwing. Perhaps I&#8217;m in the minority. I liked it when a professor once refered to something I wrote as a “screed”. I had never heard the word before and looked it up in the dictionary. One definition I remember identified screed as a drunken rant. Even now, when my drinking has all but stopped, I still love the word. I’ve many a screed left in me.</p>
<p>It really is hard trying to make non-sexist language comply with the rules of grammar without recasting the sentence you&#8217;re writing. Personally, I&#8217;m pissed at the abuse of exclamation points that has taken hold. It&#8217;s uncalled for and devalues the power of this punctuation mark. While I can see the reason people mess up pronoun agreement, I just don&#8217;t understand why they’ll punctuate a sentence with <em>!!!</em>. I may not be a great grammarian, but it seems one should know a word or sentence doesn&#8217;t become more exclamatory by adding multiple exclamation points. It just defies logic. I can only think the advent of e-mail and text messaging has caused this usage to take hold. I always think I&#8217;m reading the diary of a 4th grade schoolgirl when I see 2, 3, or more exclamation points.</p>
<p>In case you&#8217;re wondering, I found your article by following a link on <a href="http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/" rel="nofollow">Andrew Sullivan</a>&#8217;s blog. I&#8217;m sure I’m not the only one.</p>
<p>Cheers.</p>
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