http://writtens-jen.blogspot.com/

Byebye, and remember, we’re all mad here, not just me…

Jen

Cloud, it’s not that I’m not tolerant of your Christian beliefs, although it’s safe to say my views differ from yours. I just prefer to keep the discussion focused on the book, since that is the reason we are here.
I think it’s perfectly fine that you have a less analytical approach to
the book than I do, although if, as you say, you filter everything through your Christian beliefs, that too is a form of analysis.

In my experience, it’s very difficult to find people who are interested in discussing the Alice books in any depth. Even at the Yahoo discussion group on Lewis Carroll, they mostly talk about
biographical stuff rather than delving into the books.

I read the Anne of Avonlea books as a girl, loved them, will probably
dip into them again at some point,

I hope you had a nice holiday weekend!

I have no take on how Alice in Wonderland relates to my Christian beliefs. I have no idea if it does, or does not. I don’t know the former well at all.

By the way, the whole tangent that we got off onto began with my reply to your May 17th post; i.e., responding to your question.

Simply put, what makes “sense” to me, or my “take” on ANYTHING is contingent upon how it stands within the confines of God’s Word.

I am not asking you to agree with that. I am simply explaining that that is where I am coming from.

So, I may not be someone that you would care to discuss that book with; or possibly any other book, for that matter.

I say that because you have impressed me as someone who not only does not come from the same value/belief system as I, but that you may not be tolerant of it.

When I think of Alice and her adventures…it is just from a light-hearted, fun, and playfully entertaining sort of way. Clearly, your thinking goes into much more depth and analysis. If that is where you are at in reading about Alice…rock on!

I do enough deep and analytical thought in my academic, and hence, professional life.

Sometimes I like to read just to let my mind relax. Even “The Book Thief” proved to be too heavy for my taste. I am now reading Anne of Avonlea…by L. M. Montgomery.

Cloud

Not to nitpick, but we’re not discussing Carroll’s book Sylvie and Bruno here, but Alice in Wonderland. Care to share your take on how that book relates to your Christian beliefs? Perhaps you can enlighten this poor confused soul…

Jen

Youuuuu…juuuust…doooon’t…get it.

Cloud

First, who and what is “God”? I doubt anyone here thinks of God as a guy in the sky with a long flowing beard, expecting us to conform to His standards.

Let’s remember Carroll was a mathematician, a logician, and a deacon. So he brings all of that (albeit unconsciously) to his chronicling of Alice’s dream adventures. Leibniz said that God must be a mathematician. Why? I suspect it’s because pure mathematics
is “not of this world.” In The Annotated Alice, Martin Gardne notes that the “grin without a cat” is not a bad description of pure mathematicss, and quotes Bertrand Russell,:who described it as “remote from human passions, remote even from the pitiful facts of Nature…an ordered cosmos, where pure thought can dwell as in its natural home…”

to be continued…

It’s late and I’m tired, will expand on this tomorrow…

I’m very much afraid I didn’t mean anything but nonsense. Still, you know, words mean more than we mean to express when we use them, so a whole book ought to mean a great deal more than the writer means. So whatever good meanings are in the book, I’m glad to accept as the meaning of te book.”

According to the Buddhists, the physical reality we experience is actually ‘maya’, illusion or dream, and reality is constructed by subtle levels of the mind.

“The Universe dreams itslef”

–Fred Alan Wolf

in Wolf’s book “The Dreaming Universe”, he theorizes that dreaming is the basis for consciousness, and that it is through dreaming that we are able to manifest a sense of ourselves.

Paramhansa Yogananda said the purpose of our dreams at night
were to awaken us to the dreamlike nature of the universe, in the sense that the waking dream was very similar in structure to the night dreams.

night dreams fade away
all too quickly on waking
into this day dream

–Jenifer Ransom

Lewis Carroll thought life was a dream…and so, the dream-tales
of the Alice books are about life. They are much more than just fiction. He also saw life as a school for soul growth; “Life is really a sort of school, or training-time, meant chiefly for the building up of character, and of disciplining the spirit.” This too is reflected in many instances in the Alice books, i.e.: “How the creatures order one about, and make one repeat lessons! I might as well be at school at once.” Games are another theme of the books. In Alice in Wonderland, we have playing cards and croquet; in Through The Looking-Glass, chess. So life is a dream, a school, and a game. Alice (All Us) in Wonderland, dreaming, learning, and playing.

Actually, it is possible to link the topics of Lewis Carroll and my faith; which is Christianity. For example, check-out this link:

http://www.acmsonline.org/Neuhouser-Lewis%20Carroll.pdf

Claudia

“Come, there’s no use crying like that!” said Alice to herself rather
sharply. “I advise you to leave off this minute!” She generally gave herself very good advice (though she very seldom followed it), and sometimes she scolded herself so severely as to bring tears into her
eyes; and once she remembered trying to box her own ears for having cheated herself in a game of croquet she was playing against herself, for this curious child was very fond of pretending to be two
people. “But it’s no use now,” thought poor Alice, “to pretend to be two people! Why, there’s hardly enough of me left to make one
respectable person!”

What I wrote was my response to what you wrote…and the question you posed:

{He concludes that the Wonderland characters are ultimately more “real” than so-called reality, but that in waking life we must function as if they are not real, as if the chaotic subconscious is amusing “nonsense.”

Does that make sense to you?}

And now, my response to your most recent comment, i.e.,

{if God made everything, including words, then all words are true and make sense, no?}

…is that it is a non sequitur.

In any case…I thought we were here to discuss Carroll’s book.

What the “truth” is…is what I look for. I believe that the inerrant Word of God is the truth.

The truth of what goes on in the minds of people…and their interpersonal relationships/dynamics is difficult for most to see/perceive. I know that I have a rare ability to perceive most…but getting others to see it is the major difficulty.

And now I ask you…does that make sense to you? I know that it does to me.

Cloud

The Character Breakfast does sound like fun! I am guessing you live close
by Disney World? I’ve only been to Disneyland once, when I was a kid.

You asked what kind of work or study I do that causes me to read so much. When you are a writer/editor it kind of goes with the
territory. I get ideas for projects I want to do, which often require
research. I tend to drag out the research though, I always feel there’s more I could learn before I get down to the actual writing. I guess another way of putting is is, I get stuck in the research. It’s different with poems, I don’t usually feel i have to do research first,
although I did get the idea I wanted to write a poem about Anne Frank and I just finished re-reading Diary of a Young Girl. The last time I read it was in junior high school, I appreciated it much more this time around. She was a brilliant person, very perceptive, and her diary is fascinating. Death came quickly for her once the Nazis arrested them, in about six months. Sad, but she left a wonderful legacy in her diary.

I was reading an essay by Donald Rackin today about Alice in Wonderland today, in the book
Aspects Of Alice, titled “Alice’s Journey To The End Of Night.” Very good, although I don’t agree with all of it. Among other things, Rackin points out that Carroll’s initial MS is titled “Alice’s Adventures Underground” and says that might be a more appropriate title than “Wonderland” since the book is really about the subconscious, the “underground” realm below rational waking consciousness. He concludes that the Wonderland characters are ultimately more “real” than so-called reality, but that in waking life we must function as if they are not real, as if the chaotic subconscious is amusing “nonsense.”

Does that make sense to you?

Jen

Re: Disney – Character Breakfast. Various of characters walk around the restaurant and talk with guests, take pictures with, etc. It is really fun.

I have had breakfast in that manner with Alice, The Mad Hatter, Mary Poppins, Tigger, Pooh…and lots more.

By the way, I am curious as to the kind of work and/or study that you do…that would cause you to read so much. My reading of literature is purely recreational. My reading for the sake of “studying” in the area of marriage and family therapy…I am working on my state licensing for that.

Yes, although I love movies in general, I much prefer Carroll’s books to any adaptations I’ve seen.

Thanks for explaining about the bunnies and their elusive mommy!

I enjoyed reading Secret Agent in college, don’t know if I will read
it for next month’s discussion, like you, I have my reading plate full
at this time (actually all the time). For that reason I will also have to pass on your book recommendation, but thanks for telling me about it, sounds good. Also, I don’t have computer capability for watching videos online.

Merry Un-Mother’s Day to you also!

That is very funny…”imposters!” I will have to remember that one the nest time I have a discussion amidst my “Character Breakfast” at Disney World.

I am renting on Netflix several versions of Alice in Wonderland. From what you have shared of your own preferences, I would think that you prefer not view a movie…leaving more to imagination amidst reading.

Oh, concerning the bunnies in my backyard. The evidence that the mommy has been back is in how the nest covering is arranged from one day to the next.

Initially I had marked the nest with two long dandelion stems, placed in an “X.” I was so very pleased to see that they had been tossed about by the next day, and the nest was nicely covered with dried straw, and gatherings of her fur peeking out. That is, she covers her bunnies with a blanket of her fur.

Shifting to another book title, I have chosen at this time not read May’s pick…The Secret Agent. I have such a long list of books that I am wanting to read. Once I browsed through that one at the bookstore (Borders), it did not appeal to me as jumping to the top of my list, at this time.

Actually, I have become interested in some of the reads on Borders Book Club. If you have an interest, please check out “The Yiddish Policemen’s Union.” There is a video for viewing on the website…with the author. From what you have written here…I value your opinion.

I will standby for your comments…

A Very Merry Un-Mother’s Day!

Cloud

Hi Cloud,

LC (Lewis Carroll) doesn’t waste any time getting us into the
story! Within the first few paragraphs Alice is down the rabbit hole
and on her way to Wonderland.

Awww, those baby bunnies must be soooo cute! I wish I could
see them. What is the evidence you see of the mommy taking care of
her chillen? I would think they would need to be suckling, or don’t
bunnies do that?

I’m not the one to ask for recommendations of books with colorful illustrations of the book, I prefer the black and white Tenniel illustrations, they are a big part of the surreal enchantment of the Alice books, for me. Funnily enough though, LC was very critical of
Tenniel’s work! He had his own ideas of how the drawings should be done. He was quite good at drawing himself, although his work was never of professional quality. He illustrated his initial MS, Alice’s Adventures Underground, which can be read at Project Gutenberg:http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/19002

Re whether the Disney animations are true to the original–Disney is Disney, and their version of “Alice” is pretty good for what it is, but no, I don’t think it truly captures the spirit of the book, and more is left out than is added. I can’t think, offhand, of anything that was added.

I think it’s unfortunate that for many people, the Disney animation has become inseparable from LC’s book, they are vastly different.

I’ve never met any of the Wonderland characters at Disneyland, but if I did, I think I’d tell them they’re impostors.

Just kidding. I’d probably try to engage them in a discussion of
the book!

I have always been intrigued by the White Rabbit; and Alice’s first notice of him…in such a frantic hurry. And then that she actually got to experience his world.

A couple of days ago I discovered a nest of baby bunnies in my backyard. I am so thrilled to see evidence of the mommy bunny having come back daily to take care of them…yet I never see her! So elusive. Just like the White Rabbit in Alice’s adventures.

Truly, I love take a look at Alice publications which have great and colorful illustrations! Do you have any favorites of those that you can recommend?

Also, are the Disney animations true to the original MS? My husband thinks that their are some characters that Disney has added.

BY the way, have you ever meet Alice and some of the other characters at Disneyland or Disney World?

I am sorry for CUTTING out on you for such a time. Yes, it was quite the HARE-CUT, indeed.

I was thinking today that I can understand the difficulty of discussing
the Alice books. They are rich, complex works. And once you tumble down that rabbit hole, it can be hard to climb out again…

For me, I think I was always entranced by the surreal atmosphere of the books, they opened new doors in my mind. David Lodge has said
Alice in Wonderland is arguably the first great surrealist novel in the English language. He differentiates between magic realism and surrealism: “In magic realism there is always a tense connection between the real and the fantastic;: the impossible event is a kind of metaphor for the extreme paradoxes of modern history. In surrealism, metaphors *become* the real, effacing the world of reason and common sense. The Surrealists’ favorite analogy for their art, and often its source, was dreaming, in which, as Freud demonstrated, the unconscious reveals its secret desires and fears in vivid images and surprising narrative sequences unconstrained by the logic of our waking lives.”

I will get back to you on concerning your question posed to me. I must cut my husband’s hair right at this moment; of all things!

In the meantime, please don’t get me wrong; I truly adore Alice…Lewis Carroll’s creation.

Soon…